Bizarre Trick With Egg You'll Be Doing Over And Over Again

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the replies on that post split pretty neatly between

nonbinary lesbians: it’s transphobic to say you’re attracted to nonbinary people because nonbinary isn’t a “third” gender and you can’t tell if someone is nonbinary.

nonbinary non-women: I am a “third” gender actually and you can tell if for example I tell you.

like… people are speaking from completely different experiences and im not saying unaligned nonbinary people have perfect or even good opinions or treat nonbinary lesbians particularly well or respectfully but half the time it seems like nonbinary lesbians aren’t even aware that unaligned nonbinary people exist and certainly aren’t interested in like… creating discourse that acknowledges that we can be real, out, and in love.

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forcesunleashed:

I still feel like the term “exorsexism” is useless

The oppression and lateral aggression (from other trans people) that we as non-binary people feel is still transphobia

There’s no differentiating force between exorsexism and transphobia, and I feel like creating a seperate term for transphobic forces against NBs is like.. the exact opposite of what we’re going for

summary/thesis here, more detailed thoughts in following paragraphs. nonbinary rights seem to lag behind binary trans rights by a matter of decades, things that help binary trans people only help some nonbinary people, as nonbinary people become more visible sentiment against us becomes more articulated, exorsexism is an increasingly distinct and useful to identify subset of transphobia the way biphobia is a distinct and useful to identify subset of homophobia.

I think anti-nonbinary sentiment is changing and emerging as a somewhat more distinct and coherent thing as trans and nonbinary people become more visible and in some ways more accepted and definitely more legislated. I do workshops on understanding nonbinary identities and issues so I try to keep kind of abreast of like, nonbinary news, and the stuff I see doesn’t 100% track with how binary trans people are seen and treated. for example, legal victories for trans men and women aren’t necessarily all that helpful for nonbinary people. correct legal gender markers are available for trans men and women in most US states, while other markers are available in very few. trans men and women have become somewhat more common in mainstream media, and while the same is happening for nonbinary people, nonbinary characters can still pretty much be counted on one hand. I meet people on a regular basis who have a basic, decent understanding of trans men and trans women, but think nonbinary people are “going too far” or just don’t know anything about us. there’s an argument to be made that a lot of people have a category or categories for “an intermediate gender state not man or woman” in their head while not accepting that trans men or women are really their gender but I don’t think that’s “pro-nonbinary, anti-binary trans” I think it’s just transphobia. I don’t think it’s actually pro-nonbinary. anyway, this is all basically to say “in my observation, increased awareness and acceptance of binary trans people doesn’t always come along with equal awareness and acceptance of nonbinary people.”

I think something that also complicates this is like, some nonbinary people are like “I’m a woman and also it’s complicated. I will always use the women’s restroom and seek to be identified as a woman, a girlfriend, a daughter, a wife, a mother, etc. while additionally having these nonbinary feelings about gender” and some people are like “some days I’m a man and some days I’m a woman and my access needs will change from day to day” and some people are like “I am always a third different thing and I refuse to be identified with manhood or womanhood in any circumstance.” so there’s no one awareness or legislation that directly addresses all these people’s needs other than “be thoughtful and considerate and listen to a wide range of individuals.” not the simplest solution to implement, eh.

I don’t think exorsexism really is its own thing on a national level right now because I don’t think people have a clear enough picture of trans and nonbinary people yet to really… differentiate. but I think it is a thing in trans spaces and it will be a thing as awareness advances and more people have a basic picture and definition of nonbinary people while also hating us. which, I mean, I wish that wouldn’t happen, but like, it already is happening and will continue to. so. yeah. the way I see potential usefulness for a term like exorsexism is like, the animating force behind biphobia is homophobia (which is itself animated in large part by opressive gender systems). most of the discrimination that bi people face is basically homophobia. but biphobia is still a useful phrase, to me, to describe the specific experiences of bi people. imo exorsexism could be useful in the same way. I don’t think using the term exorsexism necessitates implying that it’s totally separate from and not at all driven by transphobia, or that the term biphobia necessitates that separation from homophobia.

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the LGBT community concepts of nonbinary and, in fact, trans identity, are mostly tangential to the majority of gender systems I’ve ever read about. e.g. the six gender Jewish system is, in basic intent, various categories of intersex, and in concept hostile to most categories of trans and nonbinary people.

many gender systems seem to have, basically, AMAB men (who conform to gender roles for their category and usually don’t have sex with men), AFAB women (who conform to gender roles for their category and usually don’t have sex with women), a category for transfeminine people (AMAB women and people who are absent of or mix genders) and man-loving AMABs, and sometimes a category for transmasculine people (AFAB men and people who are absent of or mix genders) and woman-loving AFABs.

of course there are tons of societies that have had and do have systems that don’t fit this typology in big and small ways, e.g. seeing homosexuality as gender standard behavior for AMAB men and AFAB women, having weak or absent gender based roles, separating AMAB women and AFAB men from people who are absent of or mix genders.

and of course this whole typology is like, untrustworthy nonsense from the guy who doesn’t know jack shit (me), and my “studies” of this topic are heavily inflected by sources with terrible and/or colonialist gender politics (I say and/or and not just and because I don’t think white people writing about, like, Ancient Greece, are really colonialist per se, they’re just awful. like sure their gender politics are colonialism-inflected but I don’t think what they’re enacting is itself colonialism. anyway). and by my own terrible and colonialist political biases.

anyway, they are mostly pretty different from the neat (LGB)T community standard “men, women, and nonbinary are all essential and primary categories.” and super different from like, “everything on this MOGAI gender listing is a class” and also often different from like… “gay men are men” and “lesbians are women” because uhhhh what-we-would-now-call-LGBT people in the past often conceptualized themselves in terms that we would now tend to find disagreeable and unsavory, and who-we-would-be-inclined-to-call-LGBT people who formed their sex and gender politics in different cultural and ideological environments may as well and it’s all, uh, well, pretty complicated. I don’t think there’s any one way to put this puzzle together correctly.

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I’m doing a presentation about nonbinary stuff with my partner @genderhawk at an upcoming conference. We’re both nonbinary afab people with hyperandrogenism. There are some slides in the presentation covering intersex stuff. I’m posting them here for feedback - any comments, criticisms, or concerns are appreciated.

Slide 1 text:

As intuitive as dividing babies into males and females might sound, it doesn’t work out very well in the real world. Intersex, also known as differences of sex development, is a grouping of congenital physical conditions where hormonal, chromosomal, or anatomical sex characteristics do not conform to the medically expected binary. According to the Organization Intersex International, intersex people make up about 1.7% of the population. So, a fairly large portion of the population (about as many as have red hair) don’t fit into the physically defined binary from the moment they’re born. This yellow flag with a purple ring is the flag of the Organization Intersex International Australia.

We’ll talk more about intersex issues later in the presentation.

Slide 2 text:

Intersex, also known as differences of sex development, is a grouping of congenital physical conditions where hormonal, chromosomal, or anatomical sex characteristics do not conform to the medically expected binary. There is nothing “wrong” with intersex people.

Medical and surgical interventions to alter the bodies of intersex children have been common over the past 80 years, and remain legal in all countries other than Malta. But most of these procedures are medically unnecessary, and even abusive - causing unnecessary physical and psychological harm to vulnerable children.

According to the Organization Intersex International, intersex people make up about 1.7% of the population.

The term “hermaphrodite” has been historically common, but is now considered dehumanising and offensive to intersex people.

Slide 3 (im especially uncertain and unsteady about this slide. I think a comparison slide is a good idea, but I can’t figure out how to format or explain it) text:

While it is certainly possible to be intersex and nonbinary, not all intersex people are nonbinary, and not all nonbinary people are intersex.

Nonbinary refers to gender identity, and intersex refers to physical characteristics.

Intersex conditions are present from birth, although not all of them will be noticeable at birth. For example, hormonal intersex conditions may not be noticeable until puberty. Gender identity is formed in response to society, and is not present until a person can conceptualize themself and their gender.

Some intersex people may see intersex as their gender, as well as their physical condition.

Slide 4:

Intersex and nonbinary communities share the desire for legal recognition of third gender options on official documentation.

In the United States, legal battles have been fought and won by members of both groups. Courts have recognized the right to nonbinary legal recognition in Colorado, Oregon, California, and New York.

Globally, forms of intersex or nonbinary legal identification are recognized in Australia, Canada, Bangladesh, Germany, India, Malta, Nepal, New Zealand, and Pakistan.

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came out as nonbinary to my garment construction class today. gonna do it tomorrow with my philosophy of religion class maybe. my new strategy is “ask the professor if I can make an announcement to the class, tell the professor what it will consist of and that I’ll tell people they can ask me questions outside of class so it doesn’t get time consuming, answer whatever questions the prof has, and with permission make my announcement”. so far I’ve been out in two classes and it goes alright.

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hailmaryfullofgrace55675:

I keep seeing posts that say something to the effect of “(for a cis person) saying that you’re attracted to nonbinary people is fetishizing the idea of nonbinariness because there’s no one nonbinary look or identity to be attracted to” and honestly? there’s no one-singular-always male look or identity, there’s no one-singular-always female look or identity. attraction is always informed by both perceived and stated gender identification.

there are fetishizers out there for sure but a cis person who’s dated nonbinary people before and says “I’m attracted to nonbinary people” isn’t automatically/necessarily more transphobic than someone who’s dated women saying “I’m attracted to women”. obviously neither of them is attracted to ALL nonbinary people or women. “I’m attracted to nonbinary people” doesn’t necessarily mean “if you’re nonbinary I definitely want you” it can just mean “I don’t automatically exclude nonbinary people from my dating pool”

people can be attracted to us, it’s not unusual, wrong, weird, or impossible.

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when I was looking up legally nonbinary people for a presentation I found out that two of them are married to each other and have an Amazon wedding registry up. and one of the items on it is………….. gentleman Jole and the red queen. by Lois McMaster Bujold. and unironically I am so glad. I am so glad that there is a future for people like me. a future for people EXACTLY like me. for people who are nonbinary, and love other nonbinary people, and read Lois McMaster bujold’s vorkosigan saga series. one of them manages a coffeeshop. I’m so, so glad.

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I’m thinking of submitting a panel on nonbinaryness for Models of Pride in October. would anyone be interested in this? what features would you like to see in this panel? elements I have thought of as possibilities include:

intro to nonbinaryness (“the gender binary is the idea that there are two mutually exclusive genders, and that everyone is one of them: male or female. but many people identify with both, neither, or something else altogether”) basic nonbinary vocab (agender, genderfluid, bigender, etc) some content about other gender systems, culture-specific identities (“many cultures across the globe and throughout history have had non-binary ideas about gender. for example, the Jewish Talmud identifies six genders, each uniquely subject to religious law.”) (this is complicated bc I don’t want to be like, an uninformed asshole about other culture’s stuff, and nonbinary vs third gender is a COMPLICATED issue, but also I feel like it might be a disservice not to mention?) nonbinaryness and orientation (what labels do nb people use? is attraction to nonbinary people gay? straight? (honestly imo the answer is… no, we need new vocab, but like, it’s complicated!)) gender alignment/identifying as a nonbinary x (nonbinary women, man-aligned nonbinary people, etc.)

any of these topics could easily have their own panel, obviously, but what do you think is best for “basics”? what level of detail would you like to see? any feedback of any kind on this is appreciated

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I’m still gay I’m still bi and I’m still here